tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17016109.post3270078742565111003..comments2023-10-26T02:41:33.351-06:00Comments on No More Gamers Anymore: What Game Reviews Don't Do, and Some SuggestionsEtelmikhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06017669493751322863noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17016109.post-70928960500974112552008-12-01T10:44:00.000-07:002008-12-01T10:44:00.000-07:00Oh, hi, Mitch. Thanks for the reply, and sorry for...Oh, hi, Mitch. Thanks for the reply, and sorry for the harshing. I do agree that it's useful to analyze what makes games appeal to different people, and I think that your accomplishment/experience dichotomy is a great place to start.Bradenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561613173295281689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17016109.post-75381749771585377762008-11-29T15:39:00.000-07:002008-11-29T15:39:00.000-07:00Interesting piece, although I think the "if any as...Interesting piece, although I think the "if any aspect spills over into the rest of it" caveat seems to undermine most of it - the fascinating thing about videogames is that all these elements seem to influence eachother (positively and/or negatively) and in turn influence the gaming experience.<BR/><BR/>For example, concerning reviewing a game's music. I do think a soundtrack should be reviewed as it generally has a big impact on the atmosphere of a game. I do agree with you that most game reviewers seem ill equipped to do this, but instead of saying "don't review music in games" I think more productive (in the long term) would be to say "learn how to review music in games". And I don't mean just namedropping a composer's name but give me an idea of how the music has an effect on your experience of playing the game. This doesn't have to take a lot of space within the review. <BR/><BR/>As an example, I was surprised to see most <I>Far Cry 2</I> reviews never mention the soundtrack - it largely consists of a strange combination of spy-thriller-like electronic percussion tracks (think the Bourne films) combined with sharp bits of string quartet pieces, which gives the whole thing a filmic yet individual, quirky feel.<BR/><BR/><I>"Very few want a good yarn with bad gameplay.<BR/><BR/>This is not a challenge but an honest question: can you name me a game that isn't an RPG or text game where the story is highly integral? For me, Portal, Bioshock, Call of Duty 4, etc. etc. are popular with the masses not because of the story, but for other reasons, and the story is just a bonus. It's not at the core."</I><BR/><BR/>I really disagree with you here. Again, the thing about videogames is that there is not actually a core, it's a combination and interaction of different elements.<BR/><BR/>Imagine the same list of games you mention with the story aspect ripped out. Out of those three I think only <I>Call of Duty 4</I> would remain mostly unaffected, but that's more because the story aspect isn't that strong in the first place.<BR/><BR/>A well told story told in a less inobtrusive way, peppered throughout a game can lift the whole experience tremendously.<BR/><BR/>But how many people playing games can actually recognise when this is happening? It's much less obvious than making your character do this or that and thinking to yourself "did I enjoy doing that". I think people do actually want a good yarn in their games but they might not actively know it (dangerous thing to say, I know, getting close to "you just dont understand this game" territory..), also because games generally are shit at telling a story. How many people have actually played a game with a great narrative <B>and</B> fantastic gameplay and experienced how wonderful that is? I mean, look at how many games tell a good yarn but have mediocre to bad gameplay and compare that to games that are fun to play but have a mediocre to crap storyline. I believe there is a deluge of the latter, in comparison. It's a bit like feeding people fastfood all their life and then saying "See? They don't <I>want</I> real food!".<BR/><BR/>Sorry for the endless post.. :)<BR/><BR/>I do agree with most of what you say in your original post and this is an interesting discussion to have. :)qrterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10028863153825150258noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17016109.post-26542395522015383112008-11-26T15:55:00.000-07:002008-11-26T15:55:00.000-07:00Bawb, I don't know if it was intended to be prescr...Bawb, I don't know if it was intended to be prescriptive so much as descriptive. That is, let's look at the real motivations we have for playing games, beyond just "I like them." But there's room for a million variations on that theme, tons of different axes you could draw if you wanted, as Mike has done so well here. Reckless vs. deliberative gaming is something that I had never considered. Nor, until I played LittleBigPlanet, was content producers vs. content consumers. Sometimes I wonder if there's even a code to be cracked when it comes to writing reviews that are universally useful. You're always going to leave somebody out.Mitch Krpatahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15987162934932391765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17016109.post-25843033342290349402008-11-26T14:20:00.000-07:002008-11-26T14:20:00.000-07:00See also the classic "If you play videogames to ex...See also the classic "<A HREF="http://www.penny-arcade.com/2008/02/22/" REL="nofollow">If you play videogames to express your dominion over others, they are impediments to your regime.</A>"Bradenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561613173295281689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17016109.post-20320801506603813032008-11-26T14:09:00.000-07:002008-11-26T14:09:00.000-07:00It's telling, by the way, that his archetypical "t...It's telling, by the way, that his archetypical "tourist" is described elsewhere by "<A HREF="http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/1/29/" REL="nofollow">"he likes to win games and I like to play them</A>." It's a pleasant scheme, but I doubt it could reliably recommend games for even a majority of gamers.Bradenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561613173295281689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17016109.post-89196490866455825342008-11-26T12:58:00.000-07:002008-11-26T12:58:00.000-07:00I enjoyed Krpata's analysis, but I'm not convinced...I enjoyed Krpata's analysis, but I'm not convinced that completionists, perfectionists, and tourists really cover the spectrum, even with a cartesian multiplication against the various game genres. For example, my enjoyment of gaming frequently comes from experimentation, which I don't think is really covered by his "new art" tourism concept. I also enjoy games that make me feel competent even when I know they're not actually hard, like Fable or playing Halo on easy or Rock Band on medium.<BR/><BR/>I think most people's enjoyment of games is more complex than any simple classification scheme, and I think most gamers know that and rely primarily on recommendations from friends for that reason.<BR/><BR/>Also, I'd disagree about Portal--I enjoyed it for the story more than for the game play.Bradenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561613173295281689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17016109.post-33084566265278017872008-11-26T11:48:00.000-07:002008-11-26T11:48:00.000-07:00Ah, okay. Fair enough.Still, they seem rare.Also, ...Ah, okay. Fair enough.<BR/><BR/>Still, they seem rare.<BR/><BR/>Also, good examples. All reviews I hate.Etelmikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017669493751322863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17016109.post-37117128268293276642008-11-26T11:42:00.000-07:002008-11-26T11:42:00.000-07:00Honestly, I've puzzled over this problem for a...Honestly, I've puzzled over this problem for almost two years now and I'm still not sure if I've made any progress on how to properly analyze the medium. I do like you suggest mostly; I gauge what I think the developers wanted me to experience and then discuss how well they accomplish it. All any of us can do is try to write a different caliber of reviews and hope that people care.<BR/><BR/>And yeah, I know what yo mean about reviews obsessing over plot. You have the numbnuts complaining about how the plot and acting is stupid yet who never seem to grasp that it isn't supposed to be a movie with buttons. Then you have the game design gurus rattling off feature after feature yet never wondering if maybe those features need to have a purpose outside of bullet points on a box. And then there's my personal favorite, the player input junkies who manage to devote 1200 words to explaining why they aren't having fun in a game without wondering if maybe the problem is just themselves. Focusing on just one aspect creates mis-balance.<BR/><BR/>Hmmm...a game where the story matters that isn't an RPG or text adventure. There was a survey on gamers about 3 years ago by XEO Design that found about 1 in 4 gamers will pay attention to the plot no matter what. So there's that demographic to keep in mind. Off the top of my head: Silent Hill series, No More Heroes, Psychonauts, Beyond Good & Evil, or Metal Gear Solid (half a movie). Each of these games are either highly varied or minimal in their game design, instead relying on the player's interest in the story to keep going.Kirk Battlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16612840105075834275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17016109.post-92228425613885297872008-11-26T11:18:00.000-07:002008-11-26T11:18:00.000-07:00Well, if any aspect spills over into the rest of i...Well, if any aspect spills over into the rest of it, it should be mentioned, which is why I tried to make caveats. But you got me on the intent part, and that's even a point I made on my Dead Space review! Doh.<BR/><BR/>But my point is that reviewers give the story too much credit and attention--readers want to be surprised and they want a fun game. Very few want a good yarn with bad gameplay.<BR/><BR/>This is not a challenge but an honest question: can you name me a game that isn't an RPG or text game where the story is highly integral? For me, Portal, Bioshock, Call of Duty 4, etc. etc. are popular with the masses not because of the story, but for other reasons, and the story is just a bonus. It's not at the core.<BR/><BR/>I guess it just seems that reviewers want something new and are tired of bad or non-existent stories and are just happy when one is there at all, and that it does nothing for readers.<BR/><BR/>As for the suggestion compliment, thanks, that means a lot. I wrote over a thousand words of crap that aren't going to see the light of day that didn't help; whether any reviewers or editors find it helpful is another thing entirely.Etelmikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06017669493751322863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17016109.post-73503491640003416812008-11-26T11:12:00.000-07:002008-11-26T11:12:00.000-07:00So many times when I read another 'Problems with C...So many times when I read another 'Problems with Criticism' piece they harp about all the things going wrong without ever offering any ideas on what to expect or how they could be done better. Thank you for offering some suggestions.<BR/><BR/>I agree with everything but the last point about plot. The blanket statement that unless it's an RPG you should not go into the story seems a bit much. Games vary and it mostly depends on how much the game expects the player to care about it. Although it should never get more air time than the game design and player input, plot can be an integral part of a game if the design is relying heavily on it.<BR/><BR/>If you're going to gauge Ebert's "intent" of the game, then the plot is going to have to be factored in if it's a part of that intent.Kirk Battlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16612840105075834275noreply@blogger.com